Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: G' day everyone.
[00:00:00] Speaker B: Welcome to Lubrication Experts today. Super important topic, ferrography. Right? So this is something which is always covered, for example, in the MLA Materials Machinery Lubrication Analyst.
For some reason I find that it's relatively rare to see actual practitioners in the field.
Now I don't know if it's because of the complexity or the fact that there's a bit of nuance to it.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: There's a bit of sort of art that goes along with the science.
But here to dispel all your myths and answer all your questions is someone who was when, when I met him for the first time in Detroit at the last Lube Expo, he was described as Rafe, you have to meet this guy. Ray is, he's the godfather of photography.
So that's how, that's how he was introduced to me. So now I'm going to introduce to you the godfather of ferrography, Ray Daly. So Ray is from Trico, but Ray, could you please give me a little kind of flavor for what it is that you do and maybe how you even got into the business.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Thank you, Rafa. And again, it's a pleasure being interviewed by you and sharing my thought processes with your audience and so forth.
How I got my title is business Development Manager at trico, involved with the potential design of the photography instruments, the application of photography instruments.
I teach and mentor a lot of our new employees and employees in the photography realm. And basically my job is to help answer some of those questions on the photography technology.
That's what my role is at TRICO at this time.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Die.
So that's awesome and I love that you described it as a photography realm. Makes it seem like this, this fantasy genre of wizards and high priests with, with the knowledge and, and, and the best thing about this podcast is we're going to get access to that, that knowledge today. So very, it's very, very exciting. Now maybe just to set the scene because there are some people who are listening to this who, who won't understand what ferography is or even what it's for, maybe how it develops. So could you please give us a flavor for kind of what ferrography is and if there's any subtypes and also how did it come about?
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Let's take that last question first.
Like I said, the technology got into play based on the US Navy needing a technology to be somewhat in between failure analysis and also spectrometric analysis. If you can understand in the world of the spectrometer back in the 60s and 70s, that helped develop for the railroad industry.
A couple of my, some of my mentors like the Bill Herbert's of the World and Ed Forgerons of the World way back when they were involved with spectrometric analysis and the Navy with that spectrometer, there was a limit to the size of the particles and they can only look up to say maybe 8 to 10 microns in size. So what happens is Mr. Vernon Westcott thought of a process called fluorography where he basically is looking at wear debris from about 2 microns all the way up to 350 to 400 microns. And that would indicate anything beyond 20 or 30 microns for each wear debris would be assessed like an abnormal type scenario.
So that's kind of where that development came into play, how he put it together. It's a simple format of getting two magnets and basically having them come together. A north and south pole with an aluminum strip sliced in between.
And what happens there is it was about 3,000 gauss. It created a magnetic gradient. And then all he did was basically in different fashions, place the in service lubricant or whatever product he wanted to examine and extract the wear debris, both ferrous and non ferrous and non metallic, onto this particular, I would say substrate or glass tube. And delving from that, what happens is we're able to create two types of format. Quantitative ferrography, which is the direct reading ferrogram, and qualitative ferrography, which was the ferrogram maker, which makes the substrate that people can examine under the microscope themselves.
That's the simplest, simplest aspect of it. He basically was able to we how I got involved. I was taking the photos of the examination of the particles and we made what they call a wear atlas. Both Dan Anderson and myself and that project was under the Foxborough guidelines with the Navy buying that particular particular wear atlas because they wanted to have something that superseded the spectrometer.
And that's how that got created into play. And that's how I got involved because of my photography background, basically. So.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: So the wear atlas is the way I understand it is basically a kind of like a reference book. Right. So that, you know, when, when someone who is a practitioner maybe for the first time is looking through the microscope at some kind of slide, you say, well, what am I looking at? There is some helpful pictures that you can reference. Right?
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Correct. And that went through a process looking at military devices and so forth. That's why the military was heavily involved with potentially getting these These instruments out in the field. And so what transpires is they have what I call a brevity of people going through the technology without staying around. Because as you know, military is pretty, how I say it, loose and goose in terms of trying to keep people, you know what I mean? So they needed to somewhat make sure that the technology was around with the atlas as a reference book, as you indicated.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: So yeah, that's, that's fascinating.
So now we've set the scene for. There's a couple of sub times. So you've already mentioned your direct read versus effectively qualitative versus quantitative. Correct.
What do you see as being the main applications? I mean you've already talked about the fact that it was developed within defense, which it seems like a lot of these technologies kind of have their origins somewhere in the defense department.
So number one, what specific application were they looking at it for? And then maybe where has it then branched out and you've. Where you've seen its most effective use?
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Typically the first thing that was designed for was was mostly gearboxes and any high RPM type machinery.
What happens is there's another technology out there as you know, vibration analysis and ultrasound and thermography and so forth. And what happens is back in the late 70s, early 80s, we were fighting amongst each other with the technology of being the.
The catch all of technologies to indicate condition monitoring. And what happens there is we kind of, instead of beating each other up, we kind of concluded that you kind of need to come together and form this alliance which we call today predictive maintenance. Okay. So that stem stemming from that, what happens is the, the quantitative aspect of things was one of the first tools to use as a screening tool, which is where the direct reading paragraph comes into play.
Now it's a less expensive test, people call it ferrography, but it's only one half or one third of the, I should say one third of the process of what you're having to do. What that does is basically screen the samples that you have, kind of quantify where is the machine at in terms of a trending application.
And then the next step is to when this, where debris or starts to go up is try to find out, okay, what is going up, what part of the application is having issues.
And in a gearbox there's a gear, there is bearings, there is all kinds of different types of items inside that tend to what I call gradually slow death.
Okay. Because gearbox are typically designed to take it for a long period of time.
Water ingestion, contamination, the whole nine yards comes into Play in regards to that and the direct and the paragraph can easily, what I call monitor all of that as long as you take what I call a good sample.
So that's where I would say you will need to apply first in regards to the photography application, if that makes sense.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: So that, that's, that's very helpful.
I think probably the key there is the use of the direct read as like a screening tool. Right. Because I think a lot of people look at foregraphy and go, well, that's very involved, you know, just in terms of the personnel aspect. Like it's, it's quite time consuming.
You need to have, you know, really good trained people and they kind of look across their lube oil program and go, well, that's not practical for us to do that for every sample. And you're Right, right. So you're supposed to use a screening tool beforehand and identify, you know, which ones do we really need to kind of zone in on. So that, that, that makes a lot of sense now with, with analytical foregraphy. So if the qualitative, if you like, you know, we've even got some subtypes to that. Right. Because I've seen you've either got your glass slides or you've got your, you know, what you might call just simple patch or micro patch or. And obviously with patches there's various different pore sizes and all the rest of it.
Are there circumstances that favor one over the other?
Like what's the reason that we would use your glass slides versus your regular patches?
[00:11:11] Speaker A: So that's an excellent question, Rafa. What happens there is in the patch you're getting an accumulation of particles that are not separated large from small.
Okay. You are getting a conglomerate of material that just plunges down on the patch and it's filtered out primarily. Okay. And you're not getting where the largest particles are disseminating to the smallest particles, which is the advantage of the glass slide or the ferrogram, I wouldn't call it. In the ferrogram, I can literally deposit wear debris and the magnet will separate out the large from the small, winding all the way down from the entry where the oil first deposits to the exit. And based on the magnetic field, it will separate out. Now some people will say, oh, so that's just ferrous material. Ray Dali. And I say, yeah, this is true. But at the same time, the non ferrous materials are randomly deposited, like panning for gold. The steel deposits debris that makes those strings of lines that in the magnetic field, the non ferrous particles like the copper alloy or zinc or chrome or aluminum will definitely just precipitate, but will precipitate without any magnetic field. And they would randomly deposit on the slide. So easily, if I look at that ferrogram or glass slide, I can then easily differentiate what's, what's ferrous and what's non ferrous. Now you'll also get some contaminant material in there too, that will deposit and be held in place. The reason I can say, you know, that that's a good technique versus the patch, and the patch has its wonders too, is that I've done examinations on the exit material, such as the waste material from that slide, and I put it under a particle counter and we literally are capturing around 97 of all the material that's in the sample onto the slide. So that's one way to prove what's going on there. And I did that probably. I hate to tell you that many, many decades ago I put it to that way. Now, the patch is an also very inexpensive and wonderful tool called. My buddy Greg Livingstone is doing wonderful jobs in designing something for those paths for the other technology that's out there for provided by Fluid Tech. Now, both Greg and I go way back also, and what I've done is taken his wonderful test format and I've come up with, what they call, how would I say, a heat treatment or a highly resistant patch against heat.
So that I can do what I call the heat treatment aspect of the patch. Because typically, Rafa, to differentiate what I call the ferrous from the non ferrous and so forth, most people would put a magnet underneath the patch to see if the particles would move. And that's where I want to remove that aspect of things because that's really what I call personalized testing. It's not something you can standardize or anything like that because then it depends on that person on what's going on. So that's why I say the, the slide is pretty good in that direction.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: So, so let's, let's put the patch just to the side just for a second.
I definitely want to come back to that.
But, but first of all, you just talked about standardization, right? And I think most people's perception of ferrography is that it is very difficult to standardize because there is a person or a technician that is involved in the process, right? So, you know, they would probably make the argument that it's a little bit like, let's say, for example, particle counting, that if you particle count on a Patch versus, you know, your, your standard laser type patch or, or poor blockage particle counters. That, that's more, let's say, you know, accurate because a machine is doing it.
So what are the kinds of standardization that's been built around ferrography as a technology which, which can help give everyone the confidence that, you know, we've, we've got a relatively standardized process.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: What happens is there's a lot of, I would say, people out there that would provide what I call their version of the descriptions of the particles.
So one way to go against that is my colleague Dan Anderson provided a standard for an ASTM standard for ferrography. And what he has done is put down the first thing was the description of the particles, standardizing on the name, culture of that, of those particles themselves.
So that was one step in moving closer to getting things under one realm of particle description, a characterization or description of some sort. So instead of saying, someone says what used to be done cutting wear, we no longer say that, we say abrasive wear. And that was the standardizing of what's going on in the standard itself. For astm, another aspect of things is being able to provide maybe a library to astm, a pictorial library.
So like the atlas that you see that I talked about earlier, and from that atlas I forgot to mention that I had designed a poster which is somewhat popular out in the marketplace.
And that poster helps people guide in terms of what they are seeing through the microscope. Now let's take the poster further and just create a library at ASTM maybe. And that library constantly grows depending on what application you're involved with. We describe things catering towards the gears and bearings and that we see a lot in many different industries. You can go through power, paper, you can steal all that stuff, but when you start getting into the food industry and all the different cement or whatever, where debris is going to be a little bit different because the application and what happens there is we need to have what I call an extensive library that we keep adding on to. So what we've done is probably going to, probably going to introduce what I call a guide to ASTM so that everyone can basically from different industries add their picture pictorial of the application they're involved with to the standard or the guide. And that will make everything much, much easier in describing the wear debris that they see and then make it easier to communicate on their reports on what's normal or what's abnormal. So just to give you an idea where we're trying to go in terms of keeping it easier to Utilize.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: And that's awesome. And so it's helpful to know that there's like kind of standard references are there. People can kind of point to them. Right. And it looks like that, that's, that's super helpful. Do you ever see a time where some of that can be automated? So you know, I'm thinking about, let's say for example in, in the sort of like the particle counting technologies, something like, you know, Spectra Scientific had the laser Net finds or you know, attend to has got their kind of light diode version of that where we get kind of visual characterization of where particles in a stream based on kind of like I guess an algorithm that determines their shape.
Is it possible to do that for a slide?
[00:19:24] Speaker A: For a slide, yes. I was just going through working with some people you may have saw online.
My colleague Rich Wurzbach was working with a company that had a digital microscope years ago. Digital microscopes can only go up to about 200x magnification. I just got a demo the other day that they can go up to almost 6000 magnification.
So that kind of gives you an idea that's overkill as far as I'm concerned in the realm in the area of ferrography. So that being said, what happens is this gentleman, this company demonstrated all that by taking a snap digital snapshot of the whole ferrogram or the whole patch if you want.
And in the past we used to worry about where the location of the particles were. The computer and everything does that for, for you where it automatically will indicate exactly what type of debris is present, potentially comparing it to a library of things and then mark those particles, that library that you're looking for to a certain particle to the whole ferrogram itself. So that gives you a kind of a sense of where it can take off to in that direction. So it, it's around the corner, my friend. Just apply a little AI activity to things. You never know. Okay, but that's around the corner for sure. And that will take. Take what I call the, the magic of. Of what do you call it for your way. And, and it will definitely be able to pinpoint exactly what's going on. The real trick is making sure you make the calls on the right application and how long things will last. That's always been the magic act.
It's almost like saying, yeah, the gearbox has cancer. And the next question was, how long do I have doc, or what do I do to get rid of the cancer? I mean, those are the two main questions. And if you can't get rid of it, then how long do I have? And it's always the doc has to make this, this infamous date like it's a magic date for them to say what to prepare for. Same world, same thing lives in the world of manufacturing managers. Okay, if I can last this long and I get production out the gate, how long can this thing go for? Can I, you know, tie this along for a period of time and okay, great. And I'll order in the meantime a replacement or this or that and so forth. And, and that's always been the magic number, no matter what, whether you're in oil, ultrasound, vibration, those things. So just my thoughts in that direction. Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on a tangent.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: No, that's, that's, that's amazing. And it's, it's cool to see some of these, you know, technologies kind of peeking around the corner sort of thing. And I guess that sort of opens up a bit of a question around that. That sort of analysis is almost like you'd maybe call it semi quantitative in the sense that it is more standardized than what it is now.
Are there other semi quantitative kind of methods that we can also apply to foregraphy? So I'm thinking, for example, like running patches through running patches or slides through an XRF machine, for example, to kind of determine like the elemental composition of what's on the patch. Is that kind of stuff possible? I haven't really seen it done all that much.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: It's there, that same demonstration I told you I talked about, you can key in an XRF on everything in that digital picture that I, that I indicate that could be taken. And you can pinpoint down to almost 2 microns in size and basically blast it. And basically it will give you that is stainless steel or it's aluminum or it's tin.
They have that already in the microscope. It's a matter of whether the customer would like to pay the extra dollars to be able to pinpoint what's going on. So what you're going to have now is a cheap version of doing analysis versus a pinpoint expert version of doing analysis. Do you want to drive in a Pinto or do you want, or do you want to drive in a, you know, a Maybach?
It depends on what you'd want to do in that direction. In terms of pinpointing the technology itself or pinpointing the analysis, I should say.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, I saw, I saw Rich's demonstration and I got to say I had, I had a massive amount of gear envy because that thing was awesome. But you know, obviously it does, it does come at a price. Although having said that, I mean, you know, maybe some of the traditional methods of doing that kind of work in the past would have been the sort of SEM EDS type work. And hey, well potentially this is a cheaper solution than that. So.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: Well anyway, what you can do from a business perspective Rafa, is someone will buy the equipment, develop a library if they want to spend three to five years developing the library.
And basically who's. What industry will help perform the want those I call measuring viewpoints because that's exactly what it is in order for them to say I can keep my plant running or I can shut it down so I can do the proper maintenance that I need to do in a jit just in time type type scenario. So there is a potential business in that direction for someone to be able to collect that. Now you can also do that maybe on a website situation where you got customers sending you information in that direction and you provide what I call a response back to them, but you're able to collect that data to make your website that much smarter. So the bigger the, what I call the bigger the library, the better and more pinpointed the, the accuracy of the, the analysis will be.
It's simple, but it's time consuming to develop.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Yes.
Yep. And that's the thing with all these kind of new AI models. It's, it's, they're only as good as the training data. Right.
Okay, so now that we've kind of gotten to that point, let's, let's talk about running a program and whether you would want to do that in house versus sending it out to a commercial lab.
You know, what's the kind of the trade offs that you see with either of those options?
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Well, I started off in this business with, after being with Foxborough, we were purchased by a company called Sohayo British Petroleum.
And when that occurred, those are the questions they were thinking about that you provided today.
What will it take?
What's the.
I would call the rii RI ROI return aspect for making that decision.
And what I've come down to is from experience is that, that if you're running about 300 to 400 samples a month doing testing of the fluorography, whatever testing format over that number, I think you should start outsourcing it to somebody else because it's going to take quite a few personnel in terms of taking samples, operating your computer system with the data results, being able to get it back, get your decision making aspects into a CMS type scenario, those type of things come into play. So my magic number was always 350 to 500 samples.
Above that, when you get up to about thousand and you're doing it on site.
Well, I take that back. When you're, when you're getting above 500, it's best then to now send it into a lab.
When that lab is now receiving about 1,000 samples, you may want to choose not just one lab, but three or four labs to be able to hopefully get all the data back and to be able to do the things you do. But I would say on site you can do samples, I should say testing about 4 or 500. And then on site for yourself, you can do of up to a thousand samples. You'll be in good shape. So I always say the breakpoint is 500 samples, if that, that makes sense to you.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: So yeah, no, that's a, that's a really good thumb rule of thumb for, for people to apply.
All right, so let's now return back to that sort of patch analysis stuff that you were talking about because, you know, as we start to wrap these up, the conversations up, I always like to kind of take a look a little bit at what the future holds and this technology that you, you mentioned that you've been working on.
And so he's very much in the sort of the near future.
So a couple of things there. First of all, you talked about patch type work that Greg and the team at Fluid Tech have been working on, which I'm assuming is mpc. Yeah.
And then we've also got the aspect of heat treatment. Now we kind of glossed over heat treatment a little bit at the very beginning.
So if you could please explain, number one, why do you want to heat treat a slide or a patch?
Number two, I think it should be obvious, but let's make sure we go over it, why you can't heat treat a standard patch.
And then number three, what is it that we're trying to accomplish with these new types of patches?
[00:29:33] Speaker A: In ferrography, when you had the glass slide that we talked about, I call it a ferrogram.
Part of the analytical ferrography aspect of things is to look at the slide from the entry to the exit and then look for particles that are unusually large or misaligned with the magnetic field and things of that nature.
Then the technician or the engineer will be take the slide and put it on the hot plate at about 650 degrees Fahrenheit at about, for 90 seconds. This is to help quicken the oxidation rate of any material that's on the slide. The particles are thin enough for that to occur.
Then you take it off after 90 seconds and put it back on this on the microscope and then inspect it again, the same particles that you were looking at the first time around, and then see if there's any temper color changes. Those temper color changes tend to pinpoint what's going on or what type of material is present.
Now, you had, we had mentioned an xrf. If you have that, guess what you don't have to do, you don't have to do that process anymore. Okay, that being said, but we talked about potential expense of the xrf. Hence this is what I said, the low, I call it low operational cost version of doing the analytical photography aspect. Now, in a patch, when you do what I call extract the wear debris, put it on the patch and look for different things, what happens is you cannot basically put it on a hot plate because guess what, the fabric or the filter medium will just dissipate. We would call that organic or whatever, and that would indicate that it'll just burn up and so the particles will burn up too for us to have what I call a heat treatment inspection of what's going on. So therefore, if we can find a patch that has about 0.47, you know, 0.047 porosity and so forth, we can, and it's impervious to the temperatures that we're looking for, such as maybe a 800 degrees F, 600 degrees F, that type of thing. We can then do the patch, put it on a hot plate, take a picture before, take a picture after, and then indicate what type of material might be in the case of what's going on. So that's what I'm doing. I'm involved with knowing that the simple, what I call ASTM standard, I think it's 7670 or something like that, where they only have what I call the instructions on how to do make a, you know, a patch from oil.
What I'm going to do is probably add the technical paper that I'll send off to you onto the standard as an appendix.
Not trying to change the standards. I'm just trying to show them that there's other techniques that they can use by having the patch themselves. I have an example of that patch that you can utilize and I have three vendors because one of the things I don't like to do is a sole source anything. And I like to have everybody have their opportunity to create business on a potential project and that is having these heat resistant glass patches they call. Okay, so there's Paul, Filter, Millipore, there's ge.
All of those guys make those particular patches. And it's on the technical paper that I have, so. And I'll send it forward to you. Okay, so that's primarily why I want to do that because one of the things that Greg's company might be thinking of is, hey, how about if I heat treat the patch that comes from varnishing and things of that nature and what color changes may they have or what happens to the patch impervious to the patch burning up in terms of the material that comes on their particular patch themselves. And that's again, a possible new potential product that it can offer today in their marketplace. So that's part of the research aspect of what's going on. So, and I like.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: So in the future, yeah, there is a possibility that we would have the capacity to do both MPC and photography on the same patch, which, you know, I think in both instances probably underutilized tests. Yeah.
Because, you know, I, up until this point for ography is, you know, when I've seen it adopted anyway, has kind of been, oh, that's for gearboxes. And MPC has been, oh, that's for turbines versus well, actually, you know, in terms of photography, anything that wears realistically could benefit from this process. And with mpc, in a similar way, anything where the oil degrades, you know, where there's enough temperature that you'll see oil degradation, which is increasingly starting to be the realm of hydraulics and, and compressors and. And a few other different applications could benefit from MPC as well. So to get sort of double bang for your buck would be a bit of a dream scenario.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be the right thing to do. And as you notice, Rafa, all we've been talking about is the inside of the units themselves. I had a small little demo for you on something, but you said to hold off on that.
But most of the times we don't inspect what's going on around the plant or around the machinery or anything like that. On the extraneous, what I call the air or whatever that's potentially coming into the place. First thing we tend to do is inspect internally on, you know, what's going on. When you go to the doctor, the first thing I want to do is let me take a temperature, let me get a blood, you know, a blood test and so forth. Everything is inside. Okay. They didn't talk about, well, you're kind of living in 30 degree temperature or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The air around you is.
It's like a sandstorm. What are you doing? Obviously that's going to make you sick. These are some of the things we don't take into consideration sometimes. And I have a way of doing a simple test. Let me explain it to you verbally. You get a glass slide, you put petroleum jelly Vaseline on it.
You melt that so it coats it very nice. Okay? You take that glass slide, which we in the gas industry, natural gas industry, they call it a coupon. You take that and you put it in different areas of the plant and you let it sit there for a week.
Guess what? I can take that glass slide back, melt it into some filtered oil, run a ferrogram of that filtered oil with the materials that was collected on the petroleum jelly, and you would be amazed on what you can see and what's going on in the plant itself. That's just one mere simple aspect of knowing what's going on outside the equipment that you're monitoring internally. Okay.
A lot of people like to put, what I call, what do you call those desiccant breathers and all this other stuff to prevent all that stuff from coming in. Well, here's one way to measure how much stuff is coming in near that particular machinery. So just give you an idea. You can look at that qualitatively or quantitatively, either one. Okay. Just one little rep, one little tidbit that I can throw at you from experience.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Okay, that is super interesting because I have never done that and I'm going to start.
That had never even occurred to me to do that kind of analysis using a little microscope that I got at the back there.
So that, that's, that, that's a, that's a really cool takeaway, actually. And, and with that, that's a. It feels like a great place to, to end it. Right? Just to give people a flavor for, you know, something novel that, that they can take away. So, Ray, look, I really, really appreciate it because photography is just one of those areas where I think there's maybe a little bit of mystique around it. And you've helped really solidify what it's all about and what it's for and give us a little peek into the future of, of the technology as well.
And so, yeah, hey, thank you so much for all your efforts.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: And I want to thank you.
And also I might as well thank the people at heart that pays me today is Trico to allow me to be on a stage, to be able to perform, provide what I call any tidbits, nuances, any information that basically, in my mind, helps grow the technology of both photography and predictive maintenance to be able to ascertain what's going on and let our customers know that we're doing the best in their interest and be able to make sure their machinery is. Is operating at peak performance. And I just want to say thank you so much for this platform.
Okay.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Really appreciate it, Ray. And I'm definitely going to have you on again, so.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: I'm gonna pin you down.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: Okay. All right, well, I'll see you in Detroit in a couple months.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah, sounds great. Sounds great.
